OT: Apathy toward Iowa fb

[rmvikes]

I would really have to debate the bolded. There was a ton of hope going into the 1990 season and there are plenty that think there is no hope for a winning season next year( I am not one of them). Walden had posted the first Big 8 winning record since 1978 and Blaise Bryant (set ISU season rushing record, fourth nationally that year) was returning after taking the Big 8 by storm. Walden was not good at ISU but 88 and 89 were solid and gave hope.

The difference right now between Walden and CPR is the first year. CPR won, Walden did not. Believe it or not but after six years....CPR has as many winning seasons as Walden.
Walden had a 37.87% winning % in his first six years.
CPR has a 38.66% winning %

I don't disagree the schedule is tougher now than then. Just sayin...

I was there at school in those years. Fall of 89 was my Freshman year. And i would tell you that no one I knew gave two craps about the football team. I care 1000% times more about the program now than when I was actually a student of the university and could go to the games for practically nothing. I went to the games (believe it or not) because my girlfriend at the time was in the marching band and I went to hang out with her. And I'd be willing to bet that if you polled people that were in school at that time, I would be in that majority - not the minority (about caring about the football games - probably not the marching band thing )

 

[SPECTRE]

I was there at school in those years. Fall of 89 was my Freshman year. And i would tell you that no one I knew gave two craps about the football team. I care 1000% times more about the program now than when I was actually a student of the university and could go to the games for practically nothing. I went to the games (believe it or not) because my girlfriend at the time was in the marching band and I went to hang out with her. And I'd be willing to bet that if you polled people that were in school at that time, I would be in that majority - not the minority (about caring about the football games - probably not the marching band thing )

Most people I knew went for the party. Many didn't go into the stadium. That continued through most of McCarney's years...at least till they started to be competitive. I'll agree with a lot of the posters that the support for FB now dwarfs what Walden had. Attendance, facilities, budget, gameday atmosphere...it's not even comparable. What IS comparable is the play on the field lately. The second half of last season, ISU looked like a CFB version of the Bad News Bears. I think that CPR made some really, really bad decisions both with coaching hires and strategically. More and more, it looks like he took Chizik and Mac's recruits and rallied them into some unexpected results. Once those guys were gone, poor talent evaluation took over and we've fallen so far behind the top teams in the conference that they're kneeling with the ball with 5 minutes left in the game.

A few years ago, I thought that CPR was about to break through to 8-4 or 9-3. But injuries and attrition prevented that. Now, things are different. The rah rah tearful speeches have worn thin. All that is left is win or move on. I'm still rooting for CPR, as I'd love to be wrong here. I don't have a message board ego to protect. But I think that Pollard made a huge mistake keeping CPR this season (which may well cost JP his job). And that is because it's going to be almost impossible to recruit. If Rhoads can find his way to 5-7, I'm all for keeping him (although he's going to have to go heavy JUCO as the negative recruiting will make things difficult for HS kids). I just don't see how 5-7 is possible. Last year, they were soft, slow and small. That's a pretty bad combination. And something that is tough to turn around in one offseason.

 

[rmvikes]

Most people I knew went for the party. Many didn't go into the stadium. That continued through most of McCarney's years...at least till they started to be competitive. I'll agree with a lot of the posters that the support for FB now dwarfs what Walden had. Attendance, facilities, budget, gameday atmosphere...it's not even comparable. What IS comparable is the play on the field lately. The second half of last season, ISU looked like a CFB version of the Bad News Bears. I think that CPR made some really, really bad decisions both with coaching hires and strategically. More and more, it looks like he took Chizik and Mac's recruits and rallied them into some unexpected results. Once those guys were gone, poor talent evaluation took over and we've fallen so far behind the top teams in the conference that they're kneeling with the ball with 5 minutes left in the game.

A few years ago, I thought that CPR was about to break through to 8-4 or 9-3. But injuries and attrition prevented that. Now, things are different. The rah rah tearful speeches have worn thin. All that is left is win or move on. I'm still rooting for CPR, as I'd love to be wrong here. I don't have a message board ego to protect. But I think that Pollard made a huge mistake keeping CPR this season (which may well cost JP his job). And that is because it's going to be almost impossible to recruit. If Rhoads can find his way to 5-7, I'm all for keeping him (although he's going to have to go heavy JUCO as the negative recruiting will make things difficult for HS kids). I just don't see how 5-7 is possible. Last year, they were soft, slow and small. That's a pretty bad combination. And something that is tough to turn around in one offseason.

I won't say i agree with everything here, but I can see where others may have that opinion. The one thing i will say is that IMHO there is no way on god's green earth that the CPR decision will cost JP his job. I admit that most ADs do not get to pick 2 football coaches let alone three. BUT JPs main job is to ensure the health and even the growth of the athletic department. If anyone wants to say that the AD is is worse shape now than it was at anytime in memory you'll have a tough time convincing me. There are donations, facility upgrades and attendance at all time highs in football and MBB both and that is despite two straight historically putrid football seasons. If there is one person not named Fred in the AD who should feel safe in his job it should be JP.

 

[Psyclone]

But I think that Pollard made a huge mistake keeping CPR this season (which may well cost JP his job).

I hope you are proven wrong. Saying Pollard is at risk is a real stretch, but I can see how you got there.

The probability that a Rhoads replacement doesn't work out is high. It would buy some time, but if the schedule doesn't ease up some, long term success will be very tough to achieve with a revolving door at head coach. I do think the tough schedule will eventually ease.

I don't think its possible to have so many good teams in the Big 12 like we had in 2014. Somebody has to lose. And many programs will make a coaching change if they don't win enough, but that's a gamble that can easily fail. Also Snyder can't stay there forever.

 

[SPECTRE]

The thing is, we thought those teams were really good. But reality is that only tcu and Baylor were really good. Ou, ut, ksu and osu were nothing special. Definitely not name the score good like ou did.

 

[Cygarin]

Cygarin, your argument always boils down to: Losing at ISU is ok when you understand why we lose. I just reject the idea that losing is anything other than losing.

I never said losing is OK jcscott, and you know that.

There is a big difference between understanding the obstacles to winning, and accepting not winning.

Not understanding the obstacles though, not to mention denying them.... is just plain, ign....

Ahh, never mind jscott78, I forgot who I was responding to.

 

[tazclone]

I was there at school in those years. Fall of 89 was my Freshman year. And i would tell you that no one I knew gave two craps about the football team. I care 1000% times more about the program now than when I was actually a student of the university and could go to the games for practically nothing. I went to the games (believe it or not) because my girlfriend at the time was in the marching band and I went to hang out with her. And I'd be willing to bet that if you polled people that were in school at that time, I would be in that majority - not the minority (about caring about the football games - probably not the marching band thing )

I worked at the stadium in 90'. Fixed a lot of fiberglass bleachers. Not saying there was hope and excitement like two years ago but there was hope and excitement

 

[tazclone]

I don't think that is what he is saying. Losing is not okay, but comparing to other losing programs provides some insight which may have implications going forward.

McCarney struggled to get things going, but there were some tough schedules in his early years. He was improving the program and got the breakthrough season in a year with a favorable schedule. Once it turned, his good years almost always happened against weaker schedules. His down years when the schedule was tougher.

I don't see a whole lot of relief for Rhoads on the schedule. A weaker Iowa team would help or is helping. Bottom line is that we need to get better. We may need to field one of the better teams we've ever had to get the number of wins needed to keep fans happy.

I think Cygarin does an excellent job of analysis. He is agreat Cyclone fan. Reality is what is is. Losing, or accepting losing, is not what he wants IMHO. But, as a die-hard Cyclone for life, I understand we have to increase our abilities. Unlike some on this board, I believe Iowa State is a great place. And, it is a place where we can have great success. I think CPR has made some changes with coaches that are for the better. The last couple of years have not been what any of us wanted. We simply must get bigger, faster and stronger.... Better. Again, the reality of our conference. I am going to stop here because this is not a good day for me. But, like Cygarin, I want a wildly successful program for Iowa State and all who love it.

very well said....both of you. Cygarin does great work putting things in perspective. However it was just a few years ago that ISU went bowling against a tough schedule. They did it because they were better. ISU can beat programs like iowa, UNI, KU, Toledo, and TT. That leaves getting one game somewhere for a bowl game. Could be WV/ Texas or KSU.

I agree with Cygarin about making the schedule easier as well. Get a Troy/SDSU/Middle Tenn instead of a top five FCS. Get rid of the MAC team and get bottom tier conference USA like FIU or UTSA. Get some cupcakes to break in new starters. It would be so much better breaking in the JUCOs against weaker competition.
The be primed dto steal a win or two

 

[bumblebee]

There is a VERY, VERY big opportunity for iSU to take over the state right now.

We could for awhile, but if Iowa hires a hot FB prospect for a coach in the near future--the fans will come back in droves. There are just too many of them

 

[bumblebee]

I know more than a few hok fans that have adopted the iSU MBB team. They love Fred, love the style, and are excited about iSU. If somehow CPR could catch a little lightning this fall, iSU could take a big step

I have met several of these in eastern Iowa--but more than 50% are female Hawk alum, who like ISU mbb for obvious reasons (and remain Iowa FB fans)

 

[bumblebee]

Whoa Bumble, you are way wrong. .

wha? wrong about what? re-read my post.. I never said we'd overtake them. I just said apathy is setting in (probably temporary) and our attendance figures may be in the 60K range and closer than ever to Kinnicks'

Here is my last statement: "We really deserve a winner but we never capitalize on Iowa's down years in FB or MBB"

 

[jason33]

I was there at school in those years. Fall of 89 was my Freshman year. And i would tell you that no one I knew gave two craps about the football team. I care 1000% times more about the program now than when I was actually a student of the university and could go to the games for practically nothing. I went to the games (believe it or not) because my girlfriend at the time was in the marching band and I went to hang out with her. And I'd be willing to bet that if you polled people that were in school at that time, I would be in that majority - not the minority (about caring about the football games - probably not the marching band thing )

Your experience in 1989 is what I experienced as a student at ISU from 1983 to 1988. Seemed like my fellow ISU students didn't give two shits about football. People tail gated, got drunk, and never went in to the game. I remember holding hope every year I went to ISU during that time that the team would all of a sudden get really good and we'd be in the top 20. Other students I knew thought I was nuts...

 

[jscott78]

I never said losing is OK jcscott, and you know that.

There is a big difference between understanding the obstacles to winning, and accepting not winning.

Not understanding the obstacles though, not to mention denying them.... is just plain, ign....

Ahh, never mind jscott78, I forgot who I was responding to.

The obstacles are irrelevant. The HFC's job is to win. At ISU "winning" is five or six games a year. CPR is failing. He's failed since the Tulsa bowl game beat down. Errors he has made are a far greater impediment to winning than the schedule is difficult arguments you make. That's your baby, I know, and you won't hear anything else except the praise of fellow posters who have bought in.

 

[tazclone]

We could for awhile, but if Iowa hires a hot FB prospect for a coach in the near future--the fans will come back in droves. There are just too many of them

We could for awhile, but if Iowa hires a hot FB prospect for a coach in the near future--the fans will come back in droves. There are just too many of them

This isn't 1990 anymore. Look at how a storied program like Michigan has struggled. They have hired two "hot" coaches and still struggle. Iowa can no longer sell playing Penn St, Michigan and tOSU. That hurts their Ohio/Pennsylvania recruiting. Then they have to sell a schedule of Minnesota, Illinois, Indiana, NW, Purdue, Rutgers and Maryland with Michigan and tOSU once every five years to their fans. The highlight of their schedule is Wisconsin and Nebraska of which they play on the road the same years. The apathy you discussed in the OP is more than a mediocre couple of seasons. It is also about being relegated to the kiddie table in the b1g and that won't change as long as Delaney is there. Fans are going to get sick of watching ho hum teams and getting beat. They have always lost to the NWs but have been able to survive those losses with wins or close games against the big boys. Not anymore

 

[rmvikes]

Why does it have to be one or the other Scotty? These are not mutually exclusive facts. Yes CPR has made several headscratchinig decisions - the biggest being buying into the leaner OL philosophy and replacing Herman with Mess. And the last two seasons have yeilded unacceptable results BUT it is also true that the schedule is currently an impediment for ANY coach to be consistantly successful at ISU. SO you and Cygarin can both be correct:

YES - 2 and 3 wins is not acceptable at any level. I have not seen Cygarin or anyone else for that matter suggest otherwise. 1 season like that COULD be grounds for termination. 2 seasons and if you are not fired, you start losing the fans and any support you had built up. 3 and if you are not gone the AD might as well close the doors to the football program because obviously no one cares about football there. BUT

Yes the schedule does make it difficult if not impossible to consistantly improve on past results. We get 5 wins. the next year we want 6+. We get six , the next step is we want 7-8. The Big 12 schedule makes it almost impssible for a program that has been down more than it has been up to improve to the point where they can be consistantly successful.

So again I ask - why can't you both be right?

 

[Lone Clone]

Maybe on HR, but around CR talking to people, I kept hearing how they were going to knock ISU down a few pegs.

I didn't express myself well. What I was trying to say was that they didn't JUST think they had a chance. They were confident they were going to beat the crap out of us.

 

[SiouxCyty]

The obstacles are irrelevant. The HFC's job is to win. At ISU "winning" is five or six games a year. CPR is failing. He's failed since the Tulsa bowl game beat down. Errors he has made are a far greater impediment to winning than the schedule is difficult arguments you make. That's your baby, I know, and you won't hear anything else except the praise of fellow posters who have bought in.

I understand all that but feel he has identified his mistakes and made necessary improvements. I would like to give the new staff a couple of years. Part of it is because I don't want to start all over, doubt we could do better and he is the right fit for ISU if he can get it turned around. I am also optimistic because we were very close to 5 wins last year. Excuse or not we have been decimated the past 2 seasons by injuries and several key players being shown the door.

 

[tazclone]

Why does it have to be one or the other Scotty? These are not mutually exclusive facts. Yes CPR has made several headscratchinig decisions - the biggest being buying into the leaner OL philosophy and replacing Herman with Mess. And the last two seasons have yeilded unacceptable results BUT it is also true that the schedule is currently an impediment for ANY coach to be consistantly successful at ISU. SO you and Cygarin can both be correct:

YES - 2 and 3 wins is not acceptable at any level. I have not seen Cygarin or anyone else for that matter suggest otherwise. 1 season like that COULD be grounds for termination. 2 seasons and if you are not fired, you start losing the fans and any support you had built up. 3 and if you are not gone the AD might as well close the doors to the football program because obviously no one cares about football there. BUT

Yes the schedule does make it difficult if not impossible to consistantly improve on past results. We get 5 wins. the next year we want 6+. We get six , the next step is we want 7-8. The Big 12 schedule makes it almost impssible for a program that has been down more than it has been up to improve to the point where they can be consistantly successful.

So again I ask - why can't you both be right?

They are both right playing a couple of lap dogs to start the season would do wonders for development. Getting two games for the OL to gel and then having 2nd and third teamers play for development would make a big difference. This is what KSU did to build their program and if we are going heavy JUCO it needs to be done to integrate the JUCOS. JUCOS rarely step right in and usually take a few games to adjust. Playing South Dakota is better than playing NDSU. Playing FIU, Florida Atlantic or UTSA is better than playing a MAC team.

But in in 2011, iSu played one of the toughest schedules in the country and went bowling because they were simply better. It took a miracle win against OSU but they were good enough to beat KU, UNI, Iowa, UConn, and TT. Why? because they had talent. They were able to pound the ball in OT against OSU because they had KO and Woody. They were simply better

 

[WoodburyCy1]

They are both right playing a couple of lap dogs to start the season would do wonders for development. Getting two games for the OL to gel and then having 2nd and third teamers play for development would make a big difference. This is what KSU did to build their program and if we are going heavy JUCO it needs to be done to integrate the JUCOS. JUCOS rarely step right in and usually take a few games to adjust. Playing South Dakota is better than playing NDSU. Playing FIU, Florida Atlantic or UTSA is better than playing a MAC team.

But in in 2011, iSu played one of the toughest schedules in the country and went bowling because they were simply better. It took a miracle win against OSU but they were good enough to beat KU, UNI, Iowa, UConn, and TT. Why? because they had talent. They were able to pound the ball in OT against OSU because they had KO and Woody. They were simply better

We had Knott and Klein backing the DL. We haven't been that good on D, since then.

 

[tazclone]

We had Knott and Klein backing the DL. We haven't been that good on D, since then.

Agree. KO, Bykoswki, Lenz, Knott, Klein, Leonard Johnson, Reeves....All made money in the NFL last year. McDonough and Hicks got serious looks and Benton has had a good AFL career. A lot of talent on that team

 

[jscott78]

I understand all that but feel he has identified his mistakes and made necessary improvements. I would like to give the new staff a couple of years. Part of it is because I don't want to start all over, doubt we could do better and he is the right fit for ISU if he can get it turned around. I am also optimistic because we were very close to 5 wins last year. Excuse or not we have been decimated the past 2 seasons by injuries and several key players being shown the door.

My personal view is that if he gets 4 wins he is retained. Five wins for sure. Five is very good for ISU, just bad relative to the conference. Get out of the Iowa series, schedule three puddings and then hope for two to three wins in the Miserable Texas conference each year.

 

[Cygarin]

The obstacles are irrelevant. The HFC's job is to win. At ISU "winning" is five or six games a year. CPR is failing. He's failed since the Tulsa bowl game beat down. Errors he has made are a far greater impediment to winning than the schedule is difficult arguments you make. That's your baby, I know, and you won't hear anything else except the praise of fellow posters who have bought in.

If you want to keep throwing lobs like "obstacles are irrelevant", I'll keep swinging.

It's an undeniable and exhaustively proven fact that if you want to beat top-25 teams....you have to BE a top-25 team.

It's also an undeniable and exhaustively proven fact that Iowa State has been playing a top-25 strength of schedule the last five years in a row. Most of them WAY above the 25 threshold, not jus barely at it.

That's not "my baby", it is indisputable fact. I'm just the messenger of the information....not the creator of the condition. That is something that you are having a hard time with jscott, but keep trying is you wish.

As I have said before, it doesn't matter if the power rankings are based on flipping Tarot Cards......the results are indisputable facts. And denying it is.......well......denial.

I have gone on record as saying that I am neither for or against keeping Paul Rhoads as our coach.

What I have also gone on record as saying.....is if the schedule doesn't change.....then our option is to find a coach that that do what no other coach in the entire state of Iowa has ever done in history (Iowa or Iowa State).

That is...to consistently, regularly, perennially beat the top-25 teams on it's schedule.

When Iowa State (or Iowa ,or any other team in the country) has six or more top-25 teams on it's schedule....the outcome is going to be what it is going to be....if Iowa State is not a top-25 team.

 

[WoodburyCy1]

If you want to keep throwing lobs like "obstacles are irrelevant", I'll keep swinging.

It an undeniable and exhaustively proven fact that if you want to beat top-25teams....you have to BE a top-25 team.

It's also an undeniable and exhaustively proven fact that Iowa State has been playing a top-25 strength of schedule the last five years in a row.

That's not "my baby", it is indisputable fact. I'm just the messenger of the information....not the creator of the condition. That is something that you are having a hard time with jscott, but keep trying is you wish.

As I have said before, it doesn't matter if the power rankings are based on flipping Tarot Cards......the results are indisputable facts. And denying it is.......well......denial.

I have gone on record as saying that I am neither for or against keeping Paul Rhoads as our coach.

What I have gone on record as saying.....is if the schedule doesn't change.....then our option is to find a coach that that do what no other coach in the entire state of Iowa has ever done in history (Iowa or Iowa State).

That is...to consistently, regularly, perennially beat the top-25 teams on it's schedule.

When Iowa State has six or more top-25 teams on it's schedule....the outcome is going to be what it is going to be....if Iowa State is not a top-25 team.

I couldn't agree more, Cygarin. I've said before that there's no notable difference between the talent levels of Iowa State and EIU. The results since Cap'n Kirk took over are the proof. As you've stated, we have a winning record vs the squawks in the KF era. It's the strength of schedule that allows the squawks to slide into a bowl and us to win 2 games/year.

 

[jscott78]

I couldn't agree more, Cygarin. I've said before that there's no notable difference between the talent levels of Iowa State and EIU. The results since Cap'n Kirk took over are the proof. As you've stated, we have a winning record vs the squawks in the KF era. It's the strength of schedule that allows the squawks to slide into a bowl and us to win 2 games/year.

So Rhoads's job becomes winning two games a year? That's what cygarin's argument allows.

 

[rmvikes]

So Rhoads's job becomes winning two games a year? That's what cygarin's argument allows.

No it doesn't unless that is what you want to see. Cygarin has said that we play 6-7 top 25 teams a year and history shows that in order to beat top 25 teams consistently you need to BE a top 25 team. ISU is not so beating those 6-7 teams a year consistently in not a realistic expectation.

However Cygarin has not said (not that I have seen anyway) that we play 10-12 top 25 teams a year that we need to be ranked higher than we are to beat. He said 6-7. That leaves 5-6 teams that are not top 25 that it is more realistic to expect success against. I have not seen anyone on this board ever say two wins in a season is an acceptable outcome. You need to get that thought out of your head.

 

[tazclone]

So Rhoads's job becomes winning two games a year? That's what cygarin's argument allows.

No it doesn't unless that is what you want to see. Cygarin has said that we play 6-7 top 25 teams a year and history shows that in order to beat top 25 teams consistently you need to BE a top 25 team. ISU is not so beating those 6-7 teams a year consistently in not a realistic expectation.

However Cygarin has not said (not that I have seen anyway) that we play 10-12 top 25 teams a year that we need to be ranked higher than we are to beat. He said 6-7. That leaves 5-6 teams that are not top 25 that it is more realistic to expect success against. I have not seen anyone on this board ever say two wins in a season is an acceptable outcome. You need to get that thought out of your head.

Actually, I think Cygarin is saying....it is easier to get 6 wins if we schedule easier teams. With the current schedule, iSu simply has to be a top 25 team to make a bowl game. iSu can do that but it is easier to schedule easier teams and iSU has never been a consistent top 25 team.

I could be wrong though

Reality is...people fail to see UNI and NDSU as teams that are at the same level of top 25-40 FBS teams. They are and iSU should never schedule them. I would rather schedule a home and away with North Texas, Southern miss, Middle Tennessee State, FIU or Florida Atlantic for recruiting reasons than UNI at home every other year.

 

[jscott78]

No it doesn't unless that is what you want to see. Cygarin has said that we play 6-7 top 25 teams a year and history shows that in order to beat top 25 teams consistently you need to BE a top 25 team. ISU is not so beating those 6-7 teams a year consistently in not a realistic expectation.

However Cygarin has not said (not that I have seen anyway) that we play 10-12 top 25 teams a year that we need to be ranked higher than we are to beat. He said 6-7. That leaves 5-6 teams that are not top 25 that it is more realistic to expect success against. I have not seen anyone on this board ever say two wins in a season is an acceptable outcome. You need to get that thought out of your head.

But until the AD consistently schedules with intelligence, two or three wins is pretty solid work under cygarin's argument, right? Because using last year as an example Iowa, Kansas and Toledo were the only likely wins.

Personally, I think the SoS argument is unnecessary not only because it is a handy excuse for losing but also because ISU has no business playing this kind of schedule and in this league. It's a recipe for continued failure.

 

[rmvikes]

Actually, I think Cygarin is saying....it is easier to get 6 wins if we schedule easier teams. With the current schedule, iSu simply has to be a top 25 team to make a bowl game. iSu can do that but it is easier to schedule easier teams and iSU has never been a consistent top 25 team.

I could be wrong though

Reality is...people fail to see UNI and NDSU as teams that are at the same level of top 25-40 FBS teams. They are and iSU should never schedule them. I would rather schedule a home and away with North Texas, Southern miss, Middle Tennessee State, FIU or Florida Atlantic for recruiting reasons than UNI at home every other year.

That is probably more accurate to what he was trying to say as an overall theory/strategy. But he has said we play 6-7 top 25 teams a year (not 10-12) and it takes atop 25 team to beat them regularly. For some reason Scotty seems to think that means Cygarin is ok with 2 wins a year and my point is that is not what Cyagarin has said. I have not seen him or anyone else say that 2 wins is OK. Yet Scotty keeps going back to that.

 

[CloneIce]

This conversation seems to be focused on us being unable to beat Top 25 teams... well the last couple of years we haven't even been able to beat I-AA teams! That is the big test that CPR needs to pass this year before we worry about anything else. If he loses his 3rd straight opener to a I-AA team, he is done for.

 

[tazclone]

But until the AD consistently schedules with intelligence, two or three wins is pretty solid work under cygarin's argument, right? Because using last year as an example Iowa, Kansas and Toledo were the only likely wins.

Personally, I think the SoS argument is unnecessary not only because it is a handy excuse for losing but also because ISU has no business playing this kind of schedule and in this league. It's a recipe for continued failure.

No because you are assuming Cygarin thinks iSu shouldn't get better.

You forgot TT and I think WV and NDSU would not fall in the top 25 argument. Definitelty top 40 but not top 25. So assuming Cygarin(yes assuming) think iSu can get and maintain a top 40 type of team...KU, TT, iowa, NDSU, and Kansas are teams iSU should beat or have a good chance to beat.

As for the SOS... It will change. conference strength always changes as do the number of conference games.

 

[rmvikes]

This conversation seems to be focused on us being unable to beat Top 25 teams... well the last couple of years we haven't even been able to beat I-AA teams! That is the big test that CPR needs to pass this year before we worry about anything else. If he loses his 3rd straight opener to a I-AA team, he is done for.

Actually this discussion has been hijacked because one person thinks there are people here who are implying that 2-3 wins is all we should expect of CPR and his staff and that is not what anyone has said.

 

[jscott78]

Actually this discussion has been hijacked because one person thinks there are people here who are implying that 2-3 wins is all we should expect of CPR and his staff and that is not what anyone has said.

I've been told by one of cygarin's disciples that winning two or three with a monster sos is better than winning six or seven in the big 10. They preferred that to winning actually. And then the big 10 had a better bowl season last year than the big 12. What a hoot. That's a big problem with sos arguments.

 

[Cygarin]

No it doesn't unless that is what you want to see. Cygarin has said that we play 6-7 top 25 teams a year and history shows that in order to beat top 25 teams consistently you need to BE a top 25 team. ISU is not so beating those 6-7 teams a year consistently in not a realistic expectation.

However Cygarin has not said (not that I have seen anyway) that we play 10-12 top 25 teams a year that we need to be ranked higher than we are to beat. He said 6-7. That leaves 5-6 teams that are not top 25 that it is more realistic to expect success against. I have not seen anyone on this board ever say two wins in a season is an acceptable outcome. You need to get that thought out of your head.

Thank you. And you summed it up quite nicely.

Jscott is just manipulating the conversation in this thread off the topic so that he can continue to be argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. It's his thang.

But it's way off my conversation, as you pointed out quite nicely and accurately.

 

[Cygarin]

I've been told by one of cygarin's disciples that winning two or three with a monster sos is better than winning six or seven in the big 10. They preferred that to winning actually. And then the big 10 had a better bowl season last year than the big 12. What a hoot. That's a big problem with sos arguments.

Not even one bit comparable with regard to season long strength of schedules, not even associative.

Not that you can comprehend that, or be willing to acknowledge it if you could.

Keep manipulating the topic off course, and eventually you can come up with something that you can be right about.

 

[WoodburyCy1]

So Rhoads's job becomes winning two games a year? That's what cygarin's argument allows.

I didn't say that was CPR's job. That's irrelavent. Plug in the next coach for ISU. If he can't recruit at a top 25 level, expect the same results. How f*&king hard is that to understand?

 

[CloneIce]

I didn't say that was CPR's job. That's irrelavent. Plug in the next coach for ISU. If he can't recruit at a top 25 level, expect the same results. How f*&king hard is that to understand?

I don't expect any ISU coach will regularly recruit at a Top 25 level. And we don't need to recruit at a Top 25 level to perform significantly better than the last two seasons. I think the problems the last couple of years stemmed from some of CPR's recruiting classes not even being at a Top 75 level. I do think we should be able to recruit in the 30-50 range.

 

[tazclone]

This conversation seems to be focused on us being unable to beat Top 25 teams... well the last couple of years we haven't even been able to beat I-AA teams! That is the big test that CPR needs to pass this year before we worry about anything else. If he loses his 3rd straight opener to a I-AA team, he is done for.

You assume that UNI/NDSU were not top 25 teams. I think Cygarin has argued to the contrary in the past and has shown them to be at least top 40 teams.

That is the issue. while all other schools are playing Savanah St, VMI or Incarnate Word, iSu is playing FCS championship contenders that would/have beaten a lot of FBS teams.

Not saying we shouldn't be a top 40 type team. IMO that is about where iowa has sat for most of KF's tenure. It is doable and it should be the expectation with spikes to the top 25 and a bad year here or there

 

[tazclone]

I've been told by one of cygarin's disciples that winning two or three with a monster sos is better than winning six or seven in the big 10. They preferred that to winning actually. And then the big 10 had a better bowl season last year than the big 12. What a hoot. That's a big problem with sos arguments.

Only for those that think bowl records define conference strength which is a very flawed argument

 

[CloneIce]

You assume that UNI/NDSU were not top 25 teams. I think Cygarin has argued to the contrary in the past and has shown them to be at least top 40 teams.

That is the issue. while all other schools are playing Savanah St, VMI or Incarnate Word, iSu is playing FCS championship contenders that would/have beaten a lot of FBS teams.

Not saying we shouldn't be a top 40 type team. IMO that is about where iowa has sat for most of KF's tenure. It is doable and it should be the expectation with spikes to the top 25 and a bad year here or there

UNI was a Top 25 team two years ago? In D1? Not a chance! They were 7-5! They lost to South Dakota and South Dakota State! I don't care what formula he is using, UNI was not a Top 25 or 40 D1 team, hell they lost 5 games to 1-AA teams! I could see arguing NDSU is good, but not that 7-5 UNI team.... a team that whupped us.

I understand the psychology behind trying to justify terrible season opening losses to I-AA teams, I really do. But its pointless to try to excuse them. Losing at home in your opener to 1-AA teams is bad for a Big 12 team, any way you slice it. They are bad losses - Big 12 teams should not lose to I-AA teams and feel that they are anything but bad losses.

 

[jscott78]

Not even one bit comparable with regard to season long strength of schedules, not even associative.

Not that you can comprehend that, or be willing to acknowledge it if you could.

Keep manipulating the topic off course, and eventually you can come up with something that you can be right about.

You poor guy. I think winning games matters and it renders your arguments useless. But just keep selling your excuses.